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Creation Evolution University • View topic - Digital Irreducible Complexity - Author Thread

Digital Irreducible Complexity - Author Thread

A forum for discussion and criticism of specialized topics relevant (pro and con) to Intelligent Design (ID) -- design detection, design specification, irreducible complexity, origin of life, platonic forms, design matrix, population genetics, cybernetic theories, semiotic theories, Fishers's fundamental theorem, Kimura's neutral evolution, Darwinian evolution, modern synthesis, probability theories, fine tuning, typology, discontinuity systematics, steganography, evolutionary algorithms, published ID material, ID philosophy, front loaded evolution, omega point theory, anthropic principles, multiverses and many-worlds, panspermia, extra terrestrials, teleology in biology, redundant complexity and fault tolerance, algorithmic complexity, complexity measures, no free lunch, blindwatchmakers, bad design, evil design, junk DNA, DNA grammars, von Neumann replicators vs. autocatalysis, Quines, polyconstrained DNA, Mendel's Accountant, DNA skittle, re-association kinetics, molecular clocks, GGU/GID models, enigma of consciousness and Quantum Mechanics, Turing machines, Lenski's bacteria, thermodynamics, Avida, self organization, self disorganization, generalized entropy, Cambrian explosion, genetic entropy, Shannon information, proscriptive information, Programming of Life, law of large numbers, etc.

Re: Digital Irreducible Complexity - Author Thread

Postby stcordova » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:17 pm

Winston,

The following question has a lot of relevance to one of my interest areas: Mendel's Accountant vs. Avida, Mendel's Accountant vs. Ev, Mendel's Accountant vs. Steiner, etc.

Simulation like Avida, Ev, Steiner give the impression of the ability of constant accumulation of complexity whereas Mendel's Accountant gives the opposite.

So the questions are,

1. Are the Steiner and geometric models ever capable of losing "functionality" that has already been acquired? That is to say, is there sort of a ratcheting such that once something beneficial is acquired, it is not possibly lost. As far as I can tell, Steiner will take the best solution of the current generation, it will never be a weaker solution than the ancestor. I contrast this with Mendel's simulation where selection does not operate with 100% efficiency to preserve all good traits, and basically the ancestors are more functional than descendants. Ironically, both Mendel and Steiner can claim "survival of the fittest" in as much as that is true in sibling-to-sibling comparisons but not true for parent to child comparisons.

2. How about Avida? My understanding is an Avida user can set it so that organisms devolve, but has it been that EQU will not evolve unless the parameters are set to essentially ensure an upward ratchet toward complexity? Is the rise of complexity essentially monotonic when EQU is evolved.

The reason the radiation question had some relevance was that when Royal Truman and I were analyzing Avida a few years before I was in contact with Dr. Marks, we suspected there was some sort of ratchet that ensured that the organism could never go extinct, so there was really no risk to innovation. My understanding is later versions of Avida don't express this bug in so blatant a way.
Biological organism by way of contrast have many risks when innovations are attempted for vital organs.


3. I have absolutely no knowledge of Ev outside your paper, but is there a ratchet favoring inevitable complexity?


I'm trying to write an essay comparing and contrasting Mendel's Accountant vs. the evolutionary algorithms like Avida, Ev, Steiner. Even though these models are all radically different, I want to identify the fundamental reason Mendel says real biological evolution is toward simplicity, whereas Avida, Ev, Steiner have been used to insinuate evolution toward complexity is almost inevitable.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Digital Irreducible Complexity - Author Thread

Postby WinstonEwert » Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:22 pm

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Re: Digital Irreducible Complexity - Author Thread

Postby Roy » Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:01 am

Roy
 
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Re: Digital Irreducible Complexity - Author Thread

Postby Roy » Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:11 am

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Re: Digital Irreducible Complexity - Author Thread

Postby WinstonEwert » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:22 pm

Roy,

The paper you reference isn't talking about the same system I discussed in my paper. I discussed the result published in the 2003 Nature paper, which produced EQU. But the system referenced in the 1999 paper isn't the same one. The two papers are both using Avida, but they have different instruction sets and different reward structures. They've evolved different programs. As such, the division presented is not of the EQU system I discussed, its for completely different program.

If you wish to claim that the program presented in the 1999 paper is irreducibly complex, then I'm happy to do an analysis of it. What I wrote about the Avida EQU system in my paper won't necessarily apply to it.
WinstonEwert
 
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Re: Digital Irreducible Complexity - Author Thread

Postby DiEb » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:31 am

FYI:

by Richard B. Hoppe
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