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Creation Evolution University • View topic - Please help poor Thornton out on the Uranium questions

Please help poor Thornton out on the Uranium questions

A forum for discussion and criticism of specialized topics relevant (pro and con) to Creation Science - fossil dating, flood geology, C14, K/Ar, radio metric dating, diffusion dating, racemization dating, DNA dating, stellar and planetary evolution, erosion dating, fast stratification, interpretations of the geological column, baraminology, distant starlight problem, Y-chromosomal Adam/Noah/Aaron/Abraham, mitochondrial Eve, Tower of Babel, Proton-21 laboratory, Sodom and Gomorrah, OEC,YEC, Progressive creation, white hole cosmology, Carmeli cosmology, VSL theories, alternate electrodynamics, mantle plume theories, folding rock theories, RATE work, planetary magnetism, faint young sun paradox, moon recession, ocean mineral saturation, astrometry and proper motion surveys, very long baseline interferometry, CMBR, moon evolution, cosmological vs. non-cosmological red shifts, polonium halos, Hydro Plates and Castastrophic Plates, varves, tree rings, noah's ark, over thrusts, lithification, hydrologic sorting, canopy theory, crater theory, planetary heating, ancient civilizations, Atlantis, trophical trees in the arctic, woolly mammoths and tropical trees in Siberia, UFOs and creationism, comets and orbital mechanics, planet satellite capture problems, planetary rings, origin of folded rocks, the Grand Canyon, the Green River valley, the Three Sisters, mountain formation, seafloor formation, tectonics, etc.

Re: Please help poor Thornton out on the Uranium questions

Postby sterusjon » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:40 am

Paul,

Thanks for your contribution.

I was aware of the complicating factor of the industrial revolution and the large consumption of C-14 "dead" fossil fuels. I was trying not to make a complicated statement even more so. While on the subject, though, in the interest of full disclosure :) , there is an additional complication. That is C-14 from nuclear weapons testing in the cold war era of the 20th century. Using 1850's material as a standard also avoided that source. We don't want to be accused of misunderstanding what we are trying to critique, now do we. These complications are known to exist and factors and procedures are integrated into the radiocarbon dating methodology to compensate for them.

There is an additional factor, called fractionation, that needs to be accounted for, as well, when deriving a radiocarbon date. C-14 and C-13, both, move through different physical processes at different rates than C-12, the most abundant isotope, because of the atomic mass difference. As a result, the isotopic ratios within a living organism will have a different ratio from that found in the atmosphere in which it lives. Sea water, especially deep sea water, will have a different C-14/C-total ratio than the atmosphere above it because it takes time for the changes in the atmospheric ratio to disperse into the water and the process itself occurs at different rates for the different isotopes.

We must not draw conclusions about radiocarbon dates without being aware of these issues and taking them into account. As I stated previously, I am not in this to fool myself or anyone else.

If one wants a little more detail on these points see .

According to the guide linked above, the data reporting can be, in my words, difficult to decipher, since the quantities, units and definitions are in disarray. See the guide's Section 6. Radiocarbon quantities and units to further understand what I mean.

All of this can put the actual issue, detected C-14 in presumed ancient carbon material, in a very dense fog. All of that fog must be cleared away if we are be sure that all can see the point in question clearly.

Again, thanks for the info. I'll go back now and digest it more fully.

Stephen
sterusjon
 
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Re: Please help poor Thornton out on the Uranium questions

Postby sterusjon » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:24 am

Paul,

Looking over your post, I see you have given me the number, 1.18x10 atoms C/atom C I was looking for. Thank you.

As a test of my understanding, if a paper reports a sample with 1.0 pMC, the ratio of C/atom C found within the sample and corrected for difference between 1950 and the date of the test by the lab would be:
1.0/100 x 1.18x10 atoms C/atom C

Which is 1.18x10 atoms C/atom C.

Right?

Stephen
sterusjon
 
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Re: Please help poor Thornton out on the Uranium questions

Postby Paul Giem » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:25 am

Yes, Stephen, you have it precisely correct. One does have to correct for the fractionation effect by measuring the C/C ratio, but this correction is commonly measured in terms of parts per thousand, and thus for most purposes, and certainly for ours, can be ignored.

You are also correct about the effects of atomic bomb testing, which peaked at about 1963 at (depending on where you were) about 180 pMC. All of us today are composed of roughly 110 pMC. As you noted, this is part of why we go back to 1850 for our standard.
Paul Giem
 
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Re: Please help poor Thornton out on the Uranium questions

Postby stcordova » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:47 pm

Can't believe I missed this paper by Dr. Baumgardner. It has a nice acknowledgement for Dr. Giem:

stcordova
 
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Re: Please help poor Thornton out on the Uranium questions

Postby sterusjon » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:46 am

Sal,

A great find. It is a book chapter rather than a paper. Another reading assignment :lol:

Stephen
sterusjon
 
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Re: Please help poor Thornton out on the Uranium questions

Postby Alan Fox » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:30 pm

Last comment from me on this site. True to form, Salvador has blocked Thorton from further comments. Sal's site. Sal's choice. Sal's spots. They don't change.
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Re: Please help poor Thornton out on the Uranium questions

Postby stcordova » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:09 pm

Alan,

Thornton was in violation of the simplest possible rule on any forum. He could have said anything he wanted in his own thread, but the rules are, when an author has the podium by starting a thread the author sets the rules for the thread.

That is the respect each member is expected to give to another, he failed to do so. So now, you're uninvited from this discussion now. Say what you want, but just not on this thread. I you want to post an "Alan Fox hates Salvador" thread, go ahead, you are free to do so in this forum, just do it according to the rules:

stcordova
 
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