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Creation Evolution University • View topic - YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ark

YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ark

A forum for discussion and criticism of specialized topics relevant (pro and con) to Creation Science - fossil dating, flood geology, C14, K/Ar, radio metric dating, diffusion dating, racemization dating, DNA dating, stellar and planetary evolution, erosion dating, fast stratification, interpretations of the geological column, baraminology, distant starlight problem, Y-chromosomal Adam/Noah/Aaron/Abraham, mitochondrial Eve, Tower of Babel, Proton-21 laboratory, Sodom and Gomorrah, OEC,YEC, Progressive creation, white hole cosmology, Carmeli cosmology, VSL theories, alternate electrodynamics, mantle plume theories, folding rock theories, RATE work, planetary magnetism, faint young sun paradox, moon recession, ocean mineral saturation, astrometry and proper motion surveys, very long baseline interferometry, CMBR, moon evolution, cosmological vs. non-cosmological red shifts, polonium halos, Hydro Plates and Castastrophic Plates, varves, tree rings, noah's ark, over thrusts, lithification, hydrologic sorting, canopy theory, crater theory, planetary heating, ancient civilizations, Atlantis, trophical trees in the arctic, woolly mammoths and tropical trees in Siberia, UFOs and creationism, comets and orbital mechanics, planet satellite capture problems, planetary rings, origin of folded rocks, the Grand Canyon, the Green River valley, the Three Sisters, mountain formation, seafloor formation, tectonics, etc.

YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ark

Postby stcordova » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:55 pm

Here is something written by a Christian Darwinists in my denomination (PCA). I don't agree with his final conclusion, but he has stated a legitimate problem that may take a long time to resolve in the YEC community. It points to something I've said, "YECs are closet macro evolutionists" because of the problem of fitting creatures onto the ARK. Many YECs don't use the word, "macro evolution", but some of the scale of change needed to fit all the animals on the ark are approaching high speed macroevolution evolution. I don't think this problem will be solved anytime soon:



It would be a great research project for a YEC that is open to novel kinds of evolution. I'm posting it here on the forum so I don't forget where I found the information.
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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby Robert Byers » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:53 pm

AMEN from a YEC.!!
Figuring out how to squeeze creatures into as few KINDS as possible for the Ark and other reasons IS a topic on conversation amongst YEC thinkers.
The bible says after its KIND, Clean 7 pairs, unclean 2 pairs,
A dove and crow were mentioned and so there is these kinds of birds so birds are not just a single kind. The snake lost their legs at the fall and so all snakes are one kind and so only one kind was on the ark. All the rest later were adaptations from the original ark pair.
Yes YEC needs to squeeze greatly things down.
I say bears , seals, dogs, are from the same kind and marsupials are just placentals with pouches. Thus the true reason why having perfect sameness in the bodies for many. not convergent evolution.
I say all marine mammals were on the ark and only afterwards adapted to the seas.

Other mechanisms, as shown by peoples colours and shapes, are there to bring quick change to biology.
Biology is very complicated and glorious.
Robert Byers
 
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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby johnspenn » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:27 pm

I'm not quite as extreme as Mr. Byers regarding the speciation events post-flood. For instance, I believe whales and dolphins and other sea-going mammals were created on the fifth creation day, along with the fish and etc.

However, the speciation that did occur was NOT macroevolution as it is popularly understood. It was adaptation according to pre-loaded genetic plasticity placed there by an all knowing God who told all the living things he created to "Be fruitful, and multiply" and fill both the land and the seas with life.

Not random, not mutation. The fittest arrived because the programming in the original genetic code made radical adaptation possible.
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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby Thorton » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:05 pm

Thorton
 

Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby sterusjon » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:31 pm

The use of the adjective "macro" is a mischaracterization of the problem. "Macro" evolution is an aspect of evolutionary theory that refers, as I understand it, to the appearance of new organs and capabilities by the accumulation of host of minor genetic and epigenetic changes to create new types of organisms. By types, I mean kingdoms from first life, phyla from kingdoms, orders from phyla, classes from orders etc. (The classification system is off the top of my head so forgive me if I messed it up a bit, but I think you get my point.) That is definitely not what the YECist means in the Noachian Flood context. In that context all the characteristics that define a "kind" were present in the pairs that left the ark. No "macro" evolution required. If you wish to characterize the problem as one of "hyper-micro" evolution then I will agree with that characterization. I do not see the problem of rearranging, segregating and loosing genetic and epigenetic content quickly nearly as large a problem as acquiring it in the first place. Speaking of "macro" evolution is, in my opinion, a red herring.

I would also like to point out that the Biblical account of the flood distinctly informs us that the animals that were taken aboard were brought to the ark by God. They were undoubtedly selected for their suitability for repopulating the post flood world. The pairs did not need to be of the same "species." They could have been from widely different "species" that were none-the-less inter-fertile, thereby causing the first litters to be quite a mixed bag.

I believe the post-flood era was a time of extreme stress with weather extremes and rapid climate changes and extensive volcanism. I believe it was sometime before the various weather patterns and ocean currents became stabilized. It appears, from some of the more recent research, that stress causes programmed "genetic experimentation" by inducing mutations at "hot spots" and other genetic modifications as well as the epigenetic factors that are just now being uncovered. Could this not account for some of the "hyper-micro" evolution?

I am not quite as radical as Mr. Byers seems to be, but I do not discount the plausibility of a mechanism for bringing about a "conversion" of many/most/all of the placentals within a region to a marsupial version. (I have a possible mechanism in mind from another "pseudo" scientific field.) Just how different are placentals from marsupials? What would need to be changed to convert one to the other? Was the convertibility present at one time but lost after or because of the conversion? These are questions that are not even broached by modern evolution-minded researchers. From their perspective, they are silly questions for us to ask. That view is dictated by their paradigm. They evaluate the YEC/Noachian Flood paradigm from within their own and inevitably misjudge it.

Stephen
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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby sterusjon » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:00 pm

Thorton,

Since, in the your prior post, you use the word "literally" when you say "literally tens of thousands of studies", you are evidently not engaging in hyperbole. I would like for you to substantiate your declaration. Otherwise, I feel justified in considering your statement a literature bluff.

The abstract you quoted indicates that the paper itself does a good job of exposing how it is that hind legs do not develop in dolphins and whales. Bravo! It, also, indicates that the authors have some personal opinions on what "may" have happened 34 and 41 million years ago. The abstract, and I presume the paper, does nothing to counter the idea that the ancestors of whales and dolphins were not "pre-loaded" with capabilities, hind leg, in particular, some of which were subsequently lost. Maybe you do not understand what johnspenn had in mind when he said "pre-loaded.".

Stephen
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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby Thorton » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:03 pm

Thorton
 

Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby Thorton » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:15 pm

Thorton
 

Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby Robert Byers » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:18 pm

Thorton
This yEC does insist marine mammals, so whales, did become sea creatures only after the flood/ark.
So mechanism is there to change them enough.
Yet not by mutation being selected etc. not evolutionism.
your links do not show whale evolution etc.
all they show is fossil data points or fossil pieces that are ORGANIZED by evolutionists into a pattern of descent.
There is no biological scientific evidence for whale evolution.
just snapshots of something said to be in descent or assent to a line from start to finish.
Without the geology telling the tale of desposition of the creature that was fossilized there is no hint of evolution.
Therefore its not biology but geology.
Therefore no biology evidence.
your links show no evidence of evolution but only examples of a diversity of creatures at the time of death and deposition.
They all lived together at the same time.
your imagining a line of reasoning or hunch is scientific investigation.
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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby Robert Byers » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:25 pm

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