YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ark

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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby Robert Byers » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:51 am

Barb wrote:[quote="Robert Byers
God gave creatures the innate mechanisms to do this as he told them to fill the earth and he meant their biology ability.


That directive was given to humans, not creatures.[/quote]

In creation week God told fowls/sea creatures to fill the seas and sky. so implied he told the ground creatures too. not in their ears but toward their biology mechanisms to bring it about. this order always allowing their biology to adapt to fill the order.
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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby Robert Byers » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:54 am

sterusjon wrote:
Robert wrote:God gave creatures the innate mechanisms to do this as he told them to fill the earth and he meant their biology ability.


Barb wrote:That directive was given to humans, not creatures.


Well, if you wish to nit-pick, you are correct, Barb. But I think Robert captures the gist of Gen 8:15-17

15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons’ wives with thee.
17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

Robert's point was that God's intention was for them to replenish the land with air-breathing life forms and an inference they were particularly suited for just that purpose in justified.

Stephen


Yes before and after the flood.
yet its not just being suited but the order is towards their biology. not their understanding.
So it means they have mecanisms within their bodies to fill the order.
So marine mammals easily came from land creatures that were on the ark and so on.
likewise placenals changed into marsupials as they went far from the ark and had to reproduce quicker to meet timelines.
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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby drc466 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:52 am

Here is my take on the pre- and post- Ark "macro evolution":

We know that genetic variation can be "built-in" and expressed via genetic mutation and "switching" on-off traits (c.f. dog breeding, blind cave fish, etc.)
The original kinds were created with significant genetic variability built-in (or "pre-loaded").
Over time (2000 years or so), that genetic variability expressed itself into most of the species also known today (cats, dogs, cattle, birds, etc.).
At the time of Noah's Ark, Noah (via God) gathered representative samples of the created kinds that contained the most genetic variability. These kinds would probably have still looked very much like a known species, but would not have included every single expressed variation (e.g. there would be an elephant, but perhaps not a wooly mammoth, mastodon, Indian/Asian variants, etc.).
After the Flood, these representative kinds, similar to but not identical to the original created kinds, once again spread out and expressed much of, but not all, the same genetic variability as pre-Flood.
Now, 5000 years later or so, if we were to once again gather representatives of each kind containing the most genetic variability, we would not need to gather every single "species". However, lacking God's help in gathering the representative kinds, and due to the additional time in which much of the "pre-loaded" variation has been lost due to in-breeding, mutation and extinction, identifying specific species as representative is near impossible (e.g. which wolf/dog/coyote breed would have the most genetic variability? and would it be even close to the breed of 5000 years ago?).

This explains why the fossil record looks very similar to existing species.
This explains why some species (expressed variations?) went extinct due to the Flood.
This explains why 20,000 or fewer Ark animals would have been required to generate all of today's known species, without "macro evolution" (in the sense of mutation generating new information).

So, as long as "macro-evolution" includes expressed variation of pre-existing genetic information due to environmental or other factors, then yes, this YEC is a closet macro evolutionist. Unfortunately, short of genetically mapping and comparing the complete DNA of every known and extinct species, it would be difficult to prove or disprove this thesis.
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Re: YECs are closet macro evolutionists because of Noah's Ar

Postby Robert Byers » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:44 am

drc466 wrote:Here is my take on the pre- and post- Ark "macro evolution":

We know that genetic variation can be "built-in" and expressed via genetic mutation and "switching" on-off traits (c.f. dog breeding, blind cave fish, etc.)
The original kinds were created with significant genetic variability built-in (or "pre-loaded").
Over time (2000 years or so), that genetic variability expressed itself into most of the species also known today (cats, dogs, cattle, birds, etc.).
At the time of Noah's Ark, Noah (via God) gathered representative samples of the created kinds that contained the most genetic variability. These kinds would probably have still looked very much like a known species, but would not have included every single expressed variation (e.g. there would be an elephant, but perhaps not a wooly mammoth, mastodon, Indian/Asian variants, etc.).
After the Flood, these representative kinds, similar to but not identical to the original created kinds, once again spread out and expressed much of, but not all, the same genetic variability as pre-Flood.
Now, 5000 years later or so, if we were to once again gather representatives of each kind containing the most genetic variability, we would not need to gather every single "species". However, lacking God's help in gathering the representative kinds, and due to the additional time in which much of the "pre-loaded" variation has been lost due to in-breeding, mutation and extinction, identifying specific species as representative is near impossible (e.g. which wolf/dog/coyote breed would have the most genetic variability? and would it be even close to the breed of 5000 years ago?).

This explains why the fossil record looks very similar to existing species.
This explains why some species (expressed variations?) went extinct due to the Flood.
This explains why 20,000 or fewer Ark animals would have been required to generate all of today's known species, without "macro evolution" (in the sense of mutation generating new information).

So, as long as "macro-evolution" includes expressed variation of pre-existing genetic information due to environmental or other factors, then yes, this YEC is a closet macro evolutionist. Unfortunately, short of genetically mapping and comparing the complete DNA of every known and extinct species, it would be difficult to prove or disprove this thesis.


Fine but too many yEC seek to invoke genetic reasons for diversity.
I don't see any need for genetic diversity but simply mechanisms in body's to bring needed changes.
The example is people and their shapes/colours.
Yes just a few kinds were on the ark. fRom these many species came and this from mechanisms .n
YEC asking for genetic options implys selection is the origin for diversity.
Very unlikely this is possible.
Remember human beings lived hundreds of years in old age before/after the flood. It wasn't from genetics but mechanisms that god allowed.
Robert Byers
 
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