Discord Republicans Q&A notes

For ID and creation science to prosper, the ability to communicate is vital from movies to books to social media to classroom to Sunday sermons. It is also vital to understand how opponents of ID and creation science use and abuse channels of communication. For example, the movie "Inherit the Wind" had tremendous impact on the culture in a way that was harmful to ID and creation science. This forum explores these topics.

Discord Republicans Q&A notes

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:32 am

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed starring Ben Stein
https://youtu.be/4HErmp5Pzqw

Ben Stein was a Harvard-trained lawyer and speech writer for Republican President Richard M. Nixon. Stein is a movie and TV celebrity.

Stein's documentary movie is about people expelled or persecuted in Academia for sympathizing with Intelligent Design.

ID sympathetic scientists in the movie, many of whom were Expelled who featured in Ben Stein's documentary movie:

Richard von Sternberg, PhD PhD, Evolutionary Biologist NCBI NIH, Smithsonian
Maciej Giertych, PhD Biologist and Prominent member of Polish Parliament
John Lennox, PhD Oxford
Michael Egnor, MD, Stony Brook
Jeffrey Schwartz, MD, UCLA
Robert Marks, PhD Distinguished Professor of Engineering, Head Evolutionary Informatics Lab
Caroline Crocker, PhD, Professor of Biology, George Mason NVCC
Guillermo Gonzalez, PhD Iowa State
Water Bradely, PhD, Distinguished Professor Engineering
Paul Nelson, PhD Biola
David Berlinski, PhD (graduate of Princeton)
Gerald Schroeder PhD, graudate of MIT
Stephen Meyer, PhD Discovery Institute, graduate of Cambridge
Doug Axe, PhD Biologic Institute
William Dembski, PhD Baylor
Steve Fuller, PhD
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Re: Discord Republicans Q&A

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:39 am

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Romans 1:18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven ... For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.


and

John 10:38
even though you do not believe me, believe the works,


ID asks a simple question, "is something designed?"

MT Rushmore, a computer, a watch.


In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there. ... There must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed [the watch] for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use. ... Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.
— William Paley, Natural Theology (1802)



Thomas Jefferson:
I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in its parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of its composition.
....
waters and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organised as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is, in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things
...
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.




Cicero:
When you see a sundial or a water-clock, you see that it tells the time by design and not by chance. How then can you imagine that the universe as a whole is devoid of purpose and intelligence, when it embraces everything, including these artifacts themselves and their artificers?

— Cicero, De Natura Deorum, ii. 34, M.T.CiceroDe natura Deorum(the nature of the gods),book II,XXIV


Darwin himself,
though he rejected ID understood the argument:
intelligent Design has perplexed me beyond all measure….
One cannot look at this Universe with all living productions & man without believing that all has been intelligently designed yet when I look to each individual organism, I can see no evidence of this.


Darwin even uses the phrase combining two concepts:
designedly created


as in
I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps
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Re: Discord Republicans Q&A

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:11 am

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Connecting the Designer of QM and ID to the Jesus Christ or the Judeo Christian God. If life is young, would you believe the Designer is the Judeo-Christian God? Jesus Christ, descendent of Old Testament Kings Josiah, Hezekiah, David. Traces all the way back to Adam, son of God.

There are many and often Competing intelligent design theories such as Extra Terrestrials, Omega Point Theory, biological front loading, and the varieties of creationism. There are theories such as front loading (Michael Behe's theory of ID) that accepts common descent of all creatures from a single ancestor, for example. Creationism distinguishes itself from competing ID theories, like front loading by identifying the Designer as the Judeo Christian God and affixing a chronology to design events. Some of this is theologically based (therefore outside of science) and some of it is not.

I am both an ID advocate and a creationist.

Physicist and Priest, Polkinhorne, Christianity distinct from other religions because it makes bold claims about history.
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Re: Discord Republicans Q&A

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:15 am

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Physicist FJ Belinfante in his book Measurements and time reversal in objective quantum theory


We thus see how quantum theory requires the existence of God. Of course, it does not ascribe to God defined in this way any of the specific additional qualities that the various existing religious doctrines ascribed to God. Acceptance of such doctrines is a matter of faith and belief.
If elementary systems do not “possess” quantitatively determinate properties, apparently God determines these properties as we measure them. We also observe the fact, unexplainable but experimentally well established, that God in His decisions about the outcomes of our experiments shows habits so regular that we can express them in the form of statistical laws of nature. This apparent determinism in macroscopic nature has hidden God and His personal influence on the universe from the eyes of many outstanding scientists.
F.J. Belinfante


and

Now we are beginning to see that quantum mechanics might actually exclude any possibility of mind-independent reality….

Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the illusion of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism.

Richard Conn Henry and Stephen R. Palmquist
Journal of Scientific Exploration Issue 21-3


and

As a physicist, I am aware that quantum mechanics, the central theory of modern physics, is even more deterministic that was the classical mechanics of which Darwin was aware. More than this, quantum mechanics is actually teleological, though physicists don’t use this loaded word (we call it “unitarity” instead of “teleology”). That is, quantum mechanics says that it is completely correct to say that the universe’s evolution is determined not by how it started in the Big Bang, but by the final state of the universe. Every stage of universal history, including every stage of biological and human history, is determined by the ultimate goal of the universe. And if I am correct that the universal final state is indeed God, then every stage of universal history, in particular every mutation that has ever occurred, or ever will occur in any living being, is determined by the action of God.

Frank Tipler
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Re: Discord Republicans Q&A

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:20 pm

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Evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne said, "In sciences pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom far closer to [the pseudo science of] phrenology than to physics."

It was the lack of DIRECT testability he cited as a vulnerability of evolution.

Many claims of creationism are outside testability and thus outside of science, but some claims are testable, such as the claim by YEC and YLC that the clocks used to date the universe and the fossil record are mis-calibrated. That calibration can be tested over time, some clocks maybe in our lifetime, some clocks outside our lifetime.




Young Life and Young Earth Creationists claim that the clocks used to date the Earth are inaccurate or mis-calibrated. In principle the actual calibration of these clocks can be tested.

Earth and other Planetery Magnetic fields decay. Their rate of decay inconsistent with long ages.

Comets, do all comets eventually disappear in far less than geological time. Not direct evidence of a young universe, but it supportive.

Genetic Entropy. Precision Medicine Initiative and other large scale GWAS studies. Are humans getting sicker and weaker and dumber? Reductive evolution. More species dying than evolving. Not exactly celebrating if the genetic entropy thesis is correct. Some predict human extinction or viability in 100,000 years. Eco system collapse?

Genetic changes Natheniel Jeanson. Increasing homozygosity in subspecies inconsistent with millions of years, but rather Noah's flood. Difficult question in genetics and bio informatics. Non-trivial. Jeanson is bright guy, Harvard trained biologist and stem cell researcher.






Alternative geological models, earthquake prediction, oil and mineral exploration.

Experiments showing amendments to relativity, particularly one-way speed of light... problem of apparent homogenous age in galaxies and stars.

Other clocks: C14 diamonds and carboniferous caol, helium in zircons, erosion rates, mineral concentration in oceans,

Alternative explanations for nucleosynthesis and radio-active decay.

Evolution falsified by ENCODE and ENCODE related projects at NIH.

Y-chromosomal Abraham.
mtDNA Eve
http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles ... -years-old

Y-chromosomal Adam.
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Re: Discord Republicans Q&A

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:41 pm

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Progress of ID. What do the facts say vs. opinion. For myself over time the facts have been more not less persuasive since I began studying the issue in 2001, 17 years ago.

For example, John Sanford and I wrote a paper falsifying a widely accepted evidence for evolution, namely nylon eating bacteria. Since nylon was invented in 1935, it was presumed a large evolutionary event happened to enable bacteria to digest nylon. Dr. Sanford and I falsified that claim on many levels. Some still use this as evidence of how new genes can evolve in the supposed evolution of primates.

http://www.nylonase.org

Falsified a lot of silly claims by Ken Miller who was an expert witness who provided what we now know is scientifically erroneous data that Judge Jones used to rule against teaching of ID in the Dover District in the famous case Kitzmiller vs. Dover.

Dr. Sanford and I also search literature and showed that present research likely falsifies various theories of supposed JunkDNA. Example:
https://crev.info/2018/01/junk-dna-may- ... er-memory/

John Sanford managed to get 4 or 5 peer-reviewed articles out that are friendly to ID, the most recent being something he co-authored with mathematician Bill Basener on Fisher's Fundamental theorem of Natural Selection.

The facts have progressed like the 1-billion dollar NIH ENCODE and ENCODE related projects. Evolutionary biologists Dan Graur hates ENCODE, called the head of the NIH, Francis Collins a creationist. He calls the ENCODE researchers crooks and ignoramuses and one of them the scientific equivalent of Saddam Hussein. Graur is throwing a tantrum over the data because ENCODE and related projects are demonstrating and integrated level of machine-like technology incompatible with theoretical limits of what can evolve by random mutation and natural selection. "If ENCODE is right, evolution is wrong."

General public. Depressing, look at our education system. Nuff said. Stating the simple biological fact it's natural that women breast feed is now considered unacceptable.
https://youtu.be/zP-lpEOVcmY
If we're not allowed to teach simple facts, how are we going to move forward. I find it WAAAAY easier to teach ID to student with knowledge of chemistry, math, logic and rudimentary biology.

Interesting poll 2009, worth re-running, general public is losing faith in God, but younger generation scientists have a stronger belief in God than the elderly generation of atheistic scientists. I think this could be because of Intelligent Design but also Christians and other believers are finding homes in academia in the hard science rather in disciplines controlled by enemies of free speech such as post-modern, neo-Marxist Socilaist Justice Warriors in disciplines like Ethnic and Gender studies.
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Re: Discord Republicans Q&A

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:48 pm

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Scientific community rejects ID and creation for the simple reason the God isn't as evident to our every day senses as the air we breathe. God has done a lot to hide the evidence, and man is not doing a lot to find it. Thus men choose to come up with godless explanations, most of which aren't very good nor experimentally testable from a scientific standpoint.

Proverbs 25:2 "It is a glory of God to conceal a matter, the glory of Kings is to search out a matter."

Easter Sunday is coming up. There are Easter egg hunts. Things are deliberately concealed for kids to find. There has to be some willingness to find evidence of design and to see it. Not a lot of willingness.

Fundamental reason is God himself has decided NOT to make ID and creation blatantly obvious such that mostly those who seek Him earnestly with all their heart mind soul and strength will see the truth, and the truth will set them free.

Evolutionary Biologist Richard Sternberg, Paleontologist Gunter Bechley, Origin of Life Researcher Dean Kenyon, Famous Geneticist and Genetic Engineer John Sanford, Parasitologist Richard Lumsden, Biologist and Parliament member Maciej Gyertch, etc.

Mark Armitage: six figure settlement Cal State University Northridge:
https://crev.info/2016/10/mark-armitage ... l-victory/

Richard Sternberg: US Office of Special Counsel and Congressional Republicans could not help him
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Re: Discord Republicans Q&A

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:50 pm

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Facts don't care about our feelings and belief. Thus faith might only inspire our search for facts, it can't inform us what the facts are. For example, I want to find out how my financial portfolio did today. I hope it is favorable and thus I'm more willing to look, but the facts will be what they will.

Facts may inspire faith.
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Re: Discord Republicans Q&A

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:39 pm

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The more I studied ID and creation, ironically at the same time, at some level I began to wish it weren't true because the God who created humans must then have also created the plagues of Egypt and the intelligently designed bacteria in the world, and the cruel constructs of predatory creatures like predators that kill in various cruel ways from biting, tearing, poisoning, electrocuting, zombifying.

What a book a devil’s chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low, and horribly cruel work of nature!

Charles Darwin


and
I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars.

Charles Darwin


Wasp Caterpillar :
https://youtu.be/vMG-LWyNcAs

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Darwin's daughter died, that influenced his views about God. Darwin said this of suffering in general:

This very old argument from the existence of suffering against the existence of an intelligent first cause seems to me a strong one;
Charles Darwin



Jesus predicted wars and climate change, there will be:
“wars and rumors of wars..famines…pestilence…earthquakes.”


So why and evil world? A couple of answers. Consider a great novel or story or drama. If there is a happy ending, what usually is a necessary element for that. Don't great dramas have villains and tragedies along the way to a happy ending? What great archytal story doesn't not have some evil in it. The possibility of evil makes what is good even more poignantly good. The Bible follows an archetypal plot on many many levels.

Do we want a reality that is sterilized from pain or loss. Consider the superbowl or world series or competitive sports. The fact there are winning teams and losing teams is what makes the game compelling and beautiful. Some decades ago, some adult insisted that it was a bad thing to let little league baseball teams ever lose games. So the game rules were that both teams were declared winners after the game. That didn't last very long because they found out the kids were keeping score.

There is a young man in my church terminally ill. What can we possibly say to him. The Apostle Paul said:
"This momentary light affliction is creating for us a weight of glory that is beyond all compare." The suffering of this present life is important to creating meaning for the next life.

Evolutionary theorists in Darwin's time thought the universe would live forever. The development of the 2nd law of thermodynamics falsified this as it predicted the universe would one day die.

The Atheist Betrand Russel ironically inspired me to be a Christian:
Such, in outline, but even more purposeless, more void of meaning, is the world which Science presents for our belief. Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins--all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built.


At that point, as much as I respected and valued the skepticism of atheism, I realized it didn't have answers for my search for meaning. The 2nd law implies the universe will end, but it also implies the universe had a beginning, and a universe having a beginning suggests that some got the universe started -- like God.

One of the pioneers of the 2nd law of thermodynamics was Lord Kelvin.

In pondering the consequences of this law, Kelvin said:

“We have the sober scientific certainty that the heavens and earth shall ‘wax old as doth a garment’1 …
Dark indeed would be the prospects for the human race if unilluminated by that light which reveals ‘new heavens and a new earth.’2”
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Re: Discord Republicans Q&A

Postby stcordova » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:44 pm

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It's helpful to distinguish a non-believer who is a seeker vs. a non-believer who is a scoffer. If a non-believer asks you a question, it's a good chance to practice your response with respect. But don't have any illusions that you can easily change minds. So just take it easy and focus on facts and admit where there are uncertainties.

One of the strongest arguments in favor of God is this, "if there is a miracle, there must be a miracle maker."

When you go to the grocery store, you see cartons of milk which say, "Pasteurized" after the famous scientist Louis Pasteur in 1961 who demonstrated that "life comes from life" and falsified the view of spontaneous generation where it was believed life can come from non-life regularly. So Pasteur falsified the idea that life normally and ordinarily can arise by itself from a lifeless set of chemicals. This has been proven repeatedly and we have a much better understanding in terms of chemistry, mathematics, cybernetic theory as to why this is so.

At the time of Pasteur we only knew that spontaneous generation of life didn't happen, but now we know better why.

Despite Pasteur's success in 1861 in his experiments against spontaneous generation, which by the way were financed by the Catholic church which had a stake in the experiment, an arch evolutionist by the name of Ernst Haeckel remained in denial as late as 1876, where he said:
"If we do not accept the hypothesis of spontaneous generation, then at this one point in the history of evolution we must have recourse to the miracle of a supernatural creation." 1876 Haeckel



Despite the fact experiment after experiment refuted spontaneous generation, Haeckel would not recant his views, even though he himself said that without this theory, there could only be supernatural creation.

Instead of multiple spontaneous generation events, mainstream science has argued for a single highly improbable origin of life which they call abiogenesis. But at some point an event could be so unique it is indistinguishable from a miracle.

Despite all the inflated and false insinuations that life can arise from non-life and over-hyped and misleading experiments claiming they've solved the problem. The problem hasn't been solved, nor do I expect it will, this is like expecting a tornado to pass through a junk yard and make functioning 747.

Nobel Prize winner, the one who discovered the structure of DNA and ushered in the era of molecular biology, Francis Crick:

An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going.


How miraculous. It's gotten to the point a top evolutionary biologist, Eugene Koonin has argued there must be multiple universes outside of our own to make this possible so that we just happen to be in one universe where life emerged. Btw, if there are multi universes, there is probably a universe where Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump in 2016 election.

https://crev.info/2018/03/end-rna-world/

http://programmingoflife.com/programming-of-life/

Now, one additional thing. We have evidence of a miracle maker, but we also have evidence the world is full of suffering. So we have a world that looks simultaneously miraculous but also cursed. These properties agree well with the theology of creation that was cursed because of Adam's sin.
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